“A skill set is a picture of all the things you’re naturally good at, and that hardly ever aligns with the job we’re doing in the workplace.” – Nancy Disbrow
Nancy Disbrow, founder of Neuro-osity, is an executive coach and consultant who helps high-achieving professionals, especially those with ADHD or dyslexia, rewire how they lead and work so they can stop spinning their wheels and start building systems that actually work for their brains.
If you find yourself forcing yourself into a tight box at work, had a ‘squiggly’ career path, or feeling frustrated that your way of doing things is seen as ‘lazy,’ this episode is for you.
We make assumptions about what a competent, successful person looks and acts like.
The truth is, the modern 9-5 working system isn’t built for every brain.
Heck, it’s truly only built for a scarce few.
If you don’t understand how hard a particular task is for someone, you might just jump to the conclusion that they don’t care or are lazy. The exact opposite is true.
Nancy highlights that her work isn’t about trying to fix someone who seems broken at work, it’s about fixing the conditions that make WORK feel broken.
In this conversation, we talk about:
- How her neurodiversity is the reason for her success
- How to make workplaces more agile and welcoming for folks of all neuro-types
- How to advocate for yourself in the workplace
- How to get the right brains into the right seat, not the right resumes
Give it a listen!
Action items from this conversation:
- What are your superpowers?
- What ‘traditional’ business practices do you struggle with, and why?
- Take a look around your work station – what’s one thing you would change?
- Reach out to Nancy for the Time & Energy Audit: Nancy@neuro-osity.com
Listen anywhere podcasts roost.
Listen to Nancy’s Podcast, The Dyslexic Maverick.
Read Laziness Does Not Exist by Dr. Devon Price
Subscribe for easy access to transcripts, show notes, our secret insider thoughts on the interviews… and the occasional goof reel.
Read the raw transcript:
[00:00:06] Janel: Welcome to Flying the Coop, a podcast about rethinking how business works
and who it should work for.
[00:00:12] Anna: We are Janel and Ana, small business owners learning in public as we turn our
company Strange Birds into a worker owned co op. Today we’re interviewing Nancy Disbrow,
founder of Neuro-ocity.
Nancy is an executive coach and consultant who helps high achieving professionals, especially,
especially those with ADHD or dyslexia, rewire how they lead and work so they can stop
spinning their wheels and start building systems that actually work for their brains.
She also advises companies on how to better support the neurodivergent folks already on their
teams, even if they don’t realize that’s who they’re working with. Which we should chat about.
And she has a very cool podcast called the Dyslexic Maverick. Maverick. Maverick.
[00:00:57] Nancy: Maverick.
[00:00:58] Anna: Maverick. Yeah, I just, I, I think of that Looney Tunes cartoon.
Only a few people will understand this. Okay, that will. Please don’t cut this, Janel. It’s great
content that will. So the podcast we’ll definitely want to hear more about.
[00:01:12] Janel: We were introduced to Nancy by our mutual pal, Hailey Boning. And after one
chat together it was like, okay, yes, exactly. This person gets it. Let’s hear a lot more from her.
There’s a lot of noise out there about neurodiversity right now, which I actually think is a great
thing. When something goes main mainstream enough to like start annoying people with its
omnipresence, that means the zeitgeist is shifting and that’s really cool.
Nancy cuts through all that noise with her sharp thinking, her deep empathy, and her quite
practical solutions. I love her approach because she’s not trying to fix anybody. She’s trying to fix
the conditions that can make work feel quite broken for people, especially people who’ve spent
years thinking the problem was them. So, so to kick us off, Nancy, you’ve said before that the
system isn’t broken. It just maybe wasn’t built for certain kinds of brains. When did you start to
realize that for yourself?
[00:02:05] Nancy: Oh my gosh. I, I think I’ve always known that I think differently than other
people. I mean, it was really young, probably, you know, first or second grade, honestly was. I, I
started to, to notice that I, I thought differently. Um, but to be honest, in the corporate world it’s. It
wasn’t until about eight years ago that I actually, I understood more that like my brain didn’t fit
the traditional mold in a way that everyone was kind of hoping and thinking that it would.
And also the way that it didn’t fit was also the reason for my success as well. So it’s like this.
This kind of, like, weird oxymoron of, like, it didn’t fit, but that’s also the reason that I was
successful as an HR leader, too.
And then so. So from there, it’s like, how. So what. What doesn’t fit? And then, like, what do I do
about it? Right. And. And what have I always done in the past to kind of fit the mold? Because I
was. I was fitting into a box that I thought I should fit into. And quite honestly, I still catch myself
doing it today. Right. Like, I still am. Like, wait, hold on. I just need to be me and just, like, tap
into my own superpowers.
[00:03:18] Janel: How did you start seeing the ways, the specific ways in which your brain
working express themselves in you being really good at what you did?
[00:03:25] Nancy: Yeah. So looking back at it, I have always seen, and I always will see things
in, like, a very big picture way. I call it my helicopter view. So I see an entire business, an entire
family, an entire house remodel, whatever it is that I’m looking at in the full, pretty much, like,
done picture. Right. So, like, some. I had a lot of different jobs, which a lot of ADHD and dyslexic
people do. We have very, like, squiggly career paths. They’re not straight and linear and typical
by any means. But what. What I noticed was that I would look at a business, and I would hear a
problem that we were trying to solve at the table, and I would think about all of the different
pieces coming together in a very different way, and what different things would pop up and
different patterns would pop up for me. And there were so many times that I was sitting at that
table thinking, you guys, it’s.
Here we are, like, literally staring at the solution. And in younger Nancy, you wouldn’t say it. Like,
I would. I would wait for everyone else’s answers, and I’m like, I don’t. I don’t think that’s it. Like,
I don’t think so. No. And. And they knew it wasn’t it either. And then I would say it, and they
would say, like, oh, my gosh, like, why were you holding out for so long? Like, why didn’t you just
say that at the beginning? And so I started to build confidence of, like, I do see something that
other people.
It. At the very least, it would take them a while to see. It’s just very natural for me.
I also had this very strong emotional connection with People that I can’t really describe. But it
has really played well in my HR career too. And I didn’t know that part either at the beginning,
but I. And Most dyslexics, about 80% of dyslexics, are above average when it comes to, like,
emotional intelligence and feeling feels from other people. And just. And I don’t know how I feel
that, but in the business world, it really helped one. I think people just trust me because I. I wear
my heart on my sleeve too. And so having that combination helps people kind of open up and
talk a little bit more freely. But it also gave me a way to pull back the layers on them and their
strengths and their skill sets and, like, what they’re really good at.
So many times in business, we don’t hire for skillset. We hire for, like, what you did before and
what your resume looks like. And those are two completely different things. A skill set is an
amazing, like, picture of all the things that you’re really, really just naturally good at. And that
hardly ever aligns really, like innately with what the job that we’re doing in the workplace. And so
looking back, that’s what I did. I just peeled back the layers on people, let them talk, ask them
what their favorite job they had was, why that was their favorite job, what do they love? What do
they hate? And I would just then think of the business and think of the needs of the business and
match the two together. And very simply put, now I call it right brain, right seat, right. I get the
right brains in the right seat. And it’s magic when it works.
And I do it no matter what. Like, if I’m getting paid for it or not. It’s just what I do.
[00:06:38] Anna: Can you talk about your own personal experience of feeling like I don’t fit into
this structure? And a little. That’s hard. That’s hard to feel, right. Like I’m not neurodivergent. But
I didn’t fit into a corporate structure for very specific reasons. And there’s like some. There’s
some emotional pain that is in there.
What was the first thing that you did to shift your working structure to better fit you and not the
system around you?
[00:07:10] Nancy: The one thing that has always, I would say more frustrates me and just like I
beat myself up over mentally a lot is my spelling. I would send out. It was the leader of an HR
team and I would send out an email to all employees and it would have a spelling mistake. And
again, people you know, would probably say, like, well, didn’t you proofread it?
I proofread that thing probably four or five times, and it doesn’t look wrong to me. And also, like,
if you don’t understand how hard it is, it just looks like I don’t care. And it looks like I’m not trying
hard enough or I didn’t spend enough time or I just whipped out that email I was in. So I get
promoted this position. I was the head of a VP of hr and I had an executive administrator for.
To help me with life.
And the first day I told her, I’m dyslexic, I will have to have you proofread everything that I do.
And she. She told me this a few months after we started working together. She goes, I thought
you were just trying to be cute or funny or silly and, and kind of, you know, earn my trust or
whatever, make me feel good. And she said, I’m so glad you told me that, because after day two
of reading how you wrote, I would have thought, there’s no way that this lady should earn this
position.
Or like, she must know somebody to have gotten this role because there’s no way that an
executive in leading an HR team could. Could write like this. And also, she’s so well spoken that,
like, I don’t know what’s going on, but this is crazy. And she’s like, I really would have probably
second guessed everything that you did had you not told me. So, like, it was. It was. I’m so glad
Chief said that because it makes it so much better for me to tell people now. Right. Like, it. It. It’s
always good, but. And I encourage other people to say it as well. It’s just. It’s the most important
thing that we can do is say, like, what we’re good at and what we’re not. Right. Like, everybody
has strengths and weaknesses.
[00:09:17] Anna: So one of the questions that we have is. Is exactly the story that you just said.
Right?
That feeling of if you hadn’t told this person, like, this is who I am.
These assumptions that we make about folks, because from school on, we are trained that this
is what a competent person looks like and sounds like. So what’s something that you wish more
teams, not just leaders, but teams understood about supporting neurodivergent folks at the
workplace.
[00:09:52] Nancy: Yeah. So one thing that just pops into my brain immediately is this. And this is
an. A. More of an ADHD thing. But I am famous for interrupting in meetings and, like, blurting out
ideas. And it’s not because we don’t care about other people, what they’re thinking or saying. It’s
one, it’s impulse control. We don’t have much of it.
There’s also working memory part of it where we have trouble holding information in our brains
for too long and we lose it if we don’t spit it out. And so part it is that we have a good idea or
what we think is a good idea and so we, we want to share it.
That is one thing. The other thing that I think is really important and people don’t realize and like
it’s one of those things that makes sense once you know it. Like you just have to know the
information about your team.
Hyperactivity looks very different in women and also in adults. So what we think of as ADHD and
like little Johnny, you know, putting stuff in the light socket, it looks different when you are either
a female or and when you grow up. Right. Like you don’t still see the 42 year old male sticking
things in light sockets. Right. For the most part. Unless I know as I say that I’m like actually you
probably do but so it’s going to look different in the workplace and it doesn’t mean that they’re
not hyperactive or it usually transfers more to mentally hyperactive and less physically
hyperactive. And if it is physically, you just don’t see it. So they’re tapping their foot, they’re
playing with a pen, they’re messing with the straw wrapper at dinner, they’re pacing while they’re
watching a movie. Like they’re doing all these things that don’t look super odd. Honestly like you,
you, you don’t really notice them for the most part.
But a lot, and especially a lot of women are mentally hyperactive and so they have 42 things
racing through their brain at any given time and it’s so hard to pick one to say out loud or to
focus on or to it. It’s actually ADHD is not a lack of focus. It’s actually that we focus on too many
things at one time and we can’t discern the one thing that we should be focusing on and p others
away. So those are the two things that I think if you know those you, you can start to spot them
in teams whether they’re self diagnosed or not. And a lot of times I get questions like do you, like
do you need to be diagnosed? Do you. It doesn’t, it doesn’t matter, right. Like we all have our
brains. A label is helpful. I think it’s very helpful to understand our brains and then to, like,
research and do all the good things to. To help ourselves, but it’s not necessary. And if you’re a
leader and you start to see some of the patterns that we’re talking about, just try it out. And if it
works, I think you got your answer.
[00:12:50] Janel: And now I’m the one with 42 thoughts floating around in my head.
[00:12:52] Anna: That’s exactly what I was about to say.
[00:12:54] Nancy: Right.
[00:12:55] Janel: The uni mind.
I’ll start with the note that I wrote because that’ll help.
The book that’s constantly floating through my mind as you’re talking about this is Laziness Does
Not Exist by Devin Price and I.
The thesis of the book is that when you see somebody doing something that you’re tempted to
interpret as like, they just don’t care, or they’re not putting enough effort in, or, you know, how
did they possibly get to this position? Like you were saying, the answer is never that they’re lazy.
Like, that’s not a real thing. There’s always reasons behind why the thing isn’t being done in the
way that you expect it to be done. And I think that that principle alone could really help teams of
all sorts of different brains be sensitive to the diverse needs of those different brains. Because
there’s a lot of different ways to be neurodiverse. Right? And I think it’s a awfully high
expectation that everyone learn every different way, that every brink this is not possible. But if
we assume good intent and we assume that it’s not because somebody’s being lazy or they
don’t care, then we start to get curious and we can ask and we can listen and we create space.
Spaces where it’s. It feels safer for people to come forward and say, actually I work this way.
Actually, I would prefer to do the work in this way. Actually, I need this kind of accommodation
and, and create more flexible workspaces for. For everybody. And Nancy, I know that that’s
specifically work that you do within corporate environments of, like, helping them create spaces
that are more conducive to. To that kind of thing.
[00:14:31] Nancy: Yeah, yeah, it is. And. And to your point, Janelle, it is. If you are just curious,
you will get your answers that you need. Right? Like, so some of the questions that I ask people
is just like, hey, what has worked for you in the past? Have you had a leader that you did work
well with? Have you come across this situation before?
What worked? What didn’t? How can I help you? Right? Like, tell me how you’re Feeling like,
let’s work through this together.
If you do any one of those questions and start the conversation, you will be a hundred times
ahead of where you are. Right. So just. Just curiosity that that’s all you really need. I will. That A
lot of people have never thought about this either. So you might be asking a question that they
haven’t been asked before or really thought about. So it may take a little time, but you can get
there.
[00:15:17] Anna: Yeah.
[00:15:17] Nancy: As far as the workplaces, there’s. There’s definitely some things that I think
are really, really important.
One is lighting. So I think one, like natural light can be amazing for some people. Some people
like it really dark though. I. The other thing people don’t think about but like the humming of a. Of
a fluorescent light.
[00:15:39] Janel: It can be.
[00:15:40] Nancy: Absolutely, like, it will take your brain into a whole new level. And whatever
work needed to be done is not going to happen.
[00:15:48] Anna: For folks not watching the video version, both Janelle and I at the phrase the
humming of a fluorescent light, like, close their eyes, leaned back and was like, lord, no moment.
So yeah, it.
[00:16:00] Nancy: It is a very real thing. And. And then once you’re in tune with it, it becomes
more. Right. So like, once you hear it, like, you can’t unhear it kind of thing. And it’s. It just can
go from bad to worse. The other piece is like noise management and just like, placement of
deaths is really important too. So it’s, you know, you don’t want to put a person that has ADHD
next to the copy machine next to the water cooler. I mean like the bath. Like, you don’t want to
put them in the most central spot because they are literally the chance of them being distracted
are going to be 100 times higher than if they were facing a corner.
And. And they’ll like it too. Like, I truly believe everybody comes to work every single day
wanting to do their best work. Right. Like they want to. You just have to give them the place to do
it. The other thing is like the noise levels of things. So there’s distractions, but then there’s also,
you know, just background noise or traffic or whatever it is. And so just being cognizant of that
is. Is really helpful as well.
Some people prefer headphones, some people don’t. I will say, since COVID a lot of people
went home for work and they found these different workplaces that really, like, worked for them
in their own home. Right. Some people really like just a background TV on just to like, kind of
like keep their brain going, which Makes sense when you understand adhd, because we have so
much going on in our brain that if it’s actually kind of background processing, a TV show in the
background or music in the background, it actually allows us to focus better because there’s only
two things that we’re focusing on instead of the 42 that we have to pick from.
So, you know, a noise machine works for some people, it doesn’t for other. Lighting works for
some. A heavy blanket across your lap is very comforting. A hoodie over, like, your head to, like,
cue your brain to, like, focus and do the work.
There’s all these little things that, you know, it just. It’s really personal decision. I think where
workplaces can kind of get challenging, though, is, you know, dress codes. Right. Like, I. I know
hoodies aren’t necessarily the most professional thing in the world. I get it. I don’t know that I’d
want one if I came into, like, a law office and saw my lawyer in, like, a hoodie hunkered down
either. Right. Like, that might not be professional, but a lot of jobs don’t require that. And so is it
something that’s, like, actually necessary or is it just something that’s always been done? I think
is a really good, challenging statement for yourself internally. Right. Like, why are we doing this?
Is this really important?
A receptionist should have different requirements maybe than somebody in the back office of an
IT room. Right. Like, that just makes sense. And I think it’s easily explained in the business when
you explain it to people. Like, we don’t have the hard conversations about this stuff. Like, just
say it.
The receptionist is in the front of the office. They’re the ones representing the company.
And he or she is going to have a different level of expectations on many things than a person in
a back office IT world. Right. Like, it’s just different. And we should treat people differently
because that’s how the world works.
[00:18:58] Anna: Yeah. It kind of makes me think of something that. So I’m going to do an
ultimate Frisbee analogy. Sorry, everyone. But not sorry. I play ultimate Frisbee and it actually
makes me think of something that happened at practice last night. Right. This is a team that I
have been playing with for.
We’ve played together for three years. We have new players come in and join us all the time.
So I was playing with. We were on a scrimmage, and the person who I was interacting the most
with on. On my team, she’s new to the team this year, so I’m still getting. We’re still Getting to
know, like, okay, they really like it when the throw goes this way. Or they. They. Their favorite
way to move is in that direction. So I can anticipate that. Right?
And I noticed this one point where I’m standing there and I’m like, this throw. All of my other
handlers are like, yeah, they wouldn’t hesitate to throw it, but she super hesitated, right? Like,
didn’t throw it at all. To the point where we were like, oh, no, this is bad. So afterward I went up
and I was like, hey, I noticed that you didn’t throw that.
Is that an uncomfortable throw for you? Like, how could I have made that more comfortable for
you? No one had ever asked her that question.
[00:20:09] Nancy: Of.
[00:20:09] Anna: And. And so I think that it’s a. The noticing of, like, oh, everyone else does this
pattern. Why did this person not. And instead of being. Going up to her and being like, why the
hell didn’t you throw it to me? I was wide open. I was more like, yo, I noticed that. Is there a way
that I could have made it, like, made you feel more confident that that throw was viable? Right.
And so I think it’s. It’s things like that, that just asking the question and noticing when.
When someone doesn’t follow the playbook again, it doesn’t mean that they stink at the game or
at their job. It just means that, like, that specific route was not necessarily comfortable for them.
And that doesn’t mean it’s the only option around.
[00:20:50] Nancy: Yeah, it goes back to positive intent. Right. If you always assume positive
intent, she wouldn’t be out there playing if she didn’t want to win. Right? Like, of course. Yeah.
So, yeah, just getting curious about it is so, so important.
It’s the same in business. Right? Like, everything that, like your. Your. Your co worker or your
peer or your supervisor, like, sometimes you just have to be curious up too. Right. It’s not all
about who’s on your team, but it’s curious up. And it’s amazing how many people have never
been asked, like, how can I help you?
[00:21:23] Janel: I’m still thinking about a thing that you said earlier. It’s kind of doing the rounds
in my brain of how we hire for, like, what’s on your resume. We don’t necessarily hire for your
skill set, because a lot of that can be invisible. And then I’m thinking of as a business owner who
gets to define the ways in which I want to work, how can I think more about designing a
business that maps to my actual skill set instead of just, here’s A list of the things that I’ve done
in the past or that I feel able to offer in the future.
[00:21:59] Nancy: Yeah. So one of my favorite quotes of all times is by Naval Ravikant, and he
asked the question, basically, what is play for you and feels like work to everyone else or looks
like work to everyone else, right? Like, what do you absolutely love to do? And you would do it if
you didn’t get paid a single dime.
And it feels like work to everybody else. And we all have those things, right? So I always
encourage people to start there. Like, start with, like, the one thing you do no matter what. Like,
nobody can actually stop me from coaching. Like, I’m going to coach somebody every single day
that I can, just because I love it, not because I’m getting paid for it, right?
So that’s one thing. So finding, like, the one thing that you really, really love to do, the other
piece is on the the flip side, right? So, like, what does somebody really, really just. It takes all of
their energy to do, not that they can’t do it, because a lot of us can do a lot of different things,
right? Like, I can write an article. It just takes me so much time that it’s not an efficient use of my
time. And other people are so good at it, right? Like, they, like, they can just do it. And I’m like,
oh, I could say it, but I couldn’t write it kind of thing. And so really finding, like, what drains your
energy. And there’s. I do. With my coaching clients, I do, like an energy audit. So we actually go
through an entire week of. Every 15 minutes of writing down exactly what they’re doing if it
provides value and then if it’s draining their energy or giving them energy.
And it is, it’s the best place to start. It’s a little time consuming, right? Like, one week is a lot
every 15 minutes. But it’s such. It just reveals so much about a work week.
[00:23:48] Anna: And that happened between Janelle and I when we were figuring out how to
work together. Our brains are incredibly different.
Like, oh, buddy. Polar opposites in many ways. Most ways, I don’t know about that. Lot of
overlap, but there’s a lot of overlap. But in terms of, like, how we get the work done, not what
work we’re doing, super different. We use notion. And it started as we were thinking about it as
building an operating system.
And then we realized, no, we’re building a translation tool between our brains. And once we
started thinking of it that way, it came together better.
[00:24:26] Janel: You also learn through a system of division of tasks like that that you don’t
have to be good at everything and that being good at and responsible for some things is enough
and you are valid and the things that you do are valuable.
I learn this every day working with Anna really, because like they said, our brains are quite
different and when we do complex projects, it turns out that they’re awfully complementary. And
it’s quite amazing for me to get to Shine doing something like data mining and organizing a giant
spreadsheet full of all kinds of crap. And then they come along and they write the metaphor
that’s going to help everybody understand it. And could I do that? Yes, I could. Are they better at
it? Yes, they are. And it’s wonderful to be able to have both of those skill skills hold on skill sets.
Shine.
I can speak it and yeah, that it’s, it feels validating. I think I’d go so far as to, to say that and like
running a business that has in like built in validation in the way that you do things is a good way
to make it last a long time.
So then I, I want to flip the lens around because we’ve been talking a lot about what you can do
if you’re running your own thing, which is more our world. But what if you are working within a
larger structure that you don’t control?
How can you advocate for yourself to be able to shine in the ways that you’re able to shine and
get what you need to be supported?
[00:25:58] Nancy: Otherwise it can be tough. I, like, I don’t want to sugarcoat this because there
are some organizations that just like, they just want the best for people. Honestly, I think most
organizations do. But then like, when it comes down to it, it’s a little bit harder to actually put
their, you know, leadership where they’re, where they, where they say they want it.
The rules aren’t written for neurodivergence in the workplace, to be honest. Like there’s the ADA
and there’s different, there’s different supports that are supposed to help. And to be honest, from
a past HR leader, they don’t like. They weren’t written for differently wired brains. They were
written for people in wheelchairs and, you know, different, more physical conditions, conditions
in the workplace. And so I really think the best thing that people can do is get clear on what type
of supports would work best for them.
Also, most HR leaders, I mean, I’m trying to do my best to change this, but most HR leaders that
I talk to do not know what to do if somebody comes to them and says I have adhd, how can you
help me? An HR leader isn’t going to know. Their, their leader probably isn’t going to know. And
so but I would really encourage people like do your own research, play with things on your own
first in your own space if you can.
There are some little things that don’t look different, honestly. Like you can have a whiteboard in
your, in your office and have like the top three priorities. And if your manager comes by you can
ask like, hey, these are the three things I’m working on. Is this aligned with what you’re thinking?
Right. Because a lot of times we one will get distracted with all these random tasks and not work
on the three things that are important. But the other thing is, you know, maybe you can’t have
two earbuds in, but maybe you can have one. Or maybe you can have like a weighted lap
blanket, right. That’s not even visible. It’s the same color as your, you know, pants or something
like that. Like there are like little things. I also suggest walking and exercise and getting outside.
Like you have to give your brain space to think and if you can do a walking meeting, even better.
I don’t know. Anna and I are in Ohio so that works about four months out of the year. But for the
rest of the time it’s hard. But we can, we can find other ways to do it. I think the other really
important thing is like there’s a lot of things in your life you can control. It’s not always your
workplace and it’s not always your leader. But diet, exercise, talking through it with somebody,
even a coach can, can really help too because it’s just you, you don’t you feel alone. Everybody
that I work with is like I thought I was the only one feeling this way and then it turns out that
you’re not.
[00:28:40] Anna: No. I think my biggest, biggest takeaway from this conversation there was a lot
but a thing I, I am going to go try is the energy audit. I’ve never thought about that before.
[00:28:51] Nancy: If anybody, if anybody wants my like the Matrix for the, the time and energy
audit, just message me on, on Instagram and I’ll send it to you. So and you can do it yourself.
And yeah, I’m happy to, to share it.
[00:29:05] Anna: We will put that in the show notes.
[00:29:07] Nancy: Awesome.
[00:29:07] Janel: It’s awesome.
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