Ep. 11 – Lauren Edwards: Building businesses that do good from day one

“Every business could be a social enterprise if they wanted it badly enough.” – Lauren Edwards

 

Lauren Edwards has spent her career helping businesses stop treating “doing good” as an afterthought and start building it into the core of how they operate.

As Executive Director of SEAChange and owner of NextStep Business Consulting, Lauren works with entrepreneurs, nonprofits, and corporations to prove that profit and purpose don’t have to be in tension.

In this conversation, we dig into what social enterprise actually means (and why the label matters less than the intention), why nonprofits and for-profits are both constrained by broken systems, and how trust (and the lack of it) shapes everything from wage gaps to public policy.

The biggest thing: you don’t have to be a nonprofit in order to do good.

 

We also cover:

  • What defines a social enterprise (and what doesn’t)
  • How profit and impact collide, and how to navigate those moments honestly
  • Practical models for values-led businesses (B Corps, benefit corporations, worker ownership, revenue sharing, and more)
  • Why “shop social” can matter as much as shop local
  • What it looks like to show up ethically when no one is watching

 

This episode was a beautiful reminder to us that how we structure our business is one of the loudest ways we can show up in the world.

 

Also, fact check! Anna states that the wage gap for CEO is 279% – very close! In 2024, CEOs were paid 281 times as much as a typical worker—in contrast to 1965, when they were paid 21 times as much as a typical worker. Um. Gross.

 

 

Action items:

  • How do you do good in your business right now? Do you measure it? How might you?
  • How do you make decisions when profit and mission are at odds with each other? Which do you prioritize? Why?

 

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Further learning:

See all episodes.

 

 

 

Subscribe for easy access to transcripts, show notes, our secret insider thoughts on the interviews… and the occasional goof reel.

 

 

Read the raw transcript:

[00:00:06] Anna: Welcome to Flying the Coop, a podcast about rethinking how business works and who it should work for. We’re Janel and Anna, small business owners learning in public as we turn our company Strange Birds into a worker owned co op.

[00:00:21] Janel: And today we are interviewing Lauren Edwards, executive director at SeaChange and owner of NextStep Business Consulting.

SeaChange, a social enterprise accelerator, believes business can be a force for good from day one. They offer online courses, accelerator cohorts, and showcase events for social enterprises.

What’s a social enterprise? Well, stick around and you will find out.

[00:00:47] Anna: I’ve known Lauren for a few years now. I know we met pre Pandemic, which feels like a lifetime ago. I’ve seen her speak multiple times and each time I come away with at least 1 million new insights, if not more. She very brilliant and I’m so glad that she said yes to come onto our humble little show. So let’s start with the most basic question out there, Lauren. What’s a social enterprise?

[00:01:09] Janel: Yeah.

[00:01:10] Lauren: Yep. Well, first, thank you both for having me. And yeah, thanks again also for like, setting the bar really low so that there are no expectations about my answers to any of these questions. No, it’s awesome. I, I appreciate it. I appreciate what you all are doing both with your own business, trying to, trying to work, you know, shift to the worker owned model, and also just what you’re doing with this, this podcast. You know, I’ve been able to listen to some of the past episodes and it’s been really great. So thank you for doing that and putting this out into the world for people to listen to. So to answer your question, it’s a fantastic one because the truth of it is is that even though, you know, I work in the social enterprise space and I help to run a social enterprise accelerator, I also often try to tell people that like, those words don’t necessarily matter because people, people don’t always know what it means or, you know, whatever. And like, let’s not worry about that because if you Google it, you’re going to get a thousand different definitions of social enterprise. And that’s because it’s not a legal designation. So often people think, oh, you’re doing good as a business, you must be a non profit, right? Like you’re, you’re starting to do good. That’s the reason why you want to exist. Non profit. And maybe like social enterprises can be a nonprofit, but ultimately, when you look at all of those definitions out in the world, you’re gonna see that there are two things in Common one is that the company is, the reason they exist is that they want to do good. And so they’re integrating that social mission into everything that they’re doing. And so it’s different than having like a corporate social responsibility policy or something like that where it’s like, oh, we do good sometimes, or kind of, here’s this little part of our work that does good. It’s like, no, the reason you exist is to do good. And I know we’ll talk more about that.

So that’s one part. And then the other part is that the way they’re going to do good, like how they’re going to make that happen is through like normal business techniques. So they’re going to sell stuff. They’re either going to sell a good or a service. And so I always say it’s these two pieces, this non negotiable, measurable, preferably social change and sustainable, financially sustainable business techniques. And that makes a social enterprise. So it can be a business, it can be a for profit business, a nonprofit business. It could be a program within a nonprofit or a for profit that’s, that’s doing good and making money. So it’s really just got those two parts right.

[00:03:25] Anna: So kind of the, the double bottom line type of vibe?

[00:03:29] Lauren: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. I know that that language is really common when talking about triple bottom lines.

[00:03:33] Anna: Right.

[00:03:33] Lauren: When you throw the environment in there. But the environment’s also a way to do good. So you know, we can, you can kind of combine those with social enterprise.

[00:03:38] Janel: I’ve never heard that phrase before. Wait, can you tell me what that means?

[00:03:41] Anna: So typically the bottom line of a business is profit. Right. Make money. A double bottom line is exactly what Lauren was talking about where yes, make money but also do good. And those are both measurements that you are working toward at an equal level. Did I, did I nail it?

[00:03:56] Lauren: Yeah.

[00:03:57] Anna: No.

[00:03:57] Lauren: That’s awesome. Yep. And then I use triple bottom line because that’s a more common term in kind of some forms of corporate culture where, when, when you add to the profit bottom line as you’re concerned about your people and then also the planet, so it’s profit people. And planet is commonly considered to be the triple bottom line. Like when a company, a bigger company wants to worry about more than just money.

[00:04:23] Janel: Okay, so let me ask a follow up to that. What happens when they’re in conflict? If like you’re making kind of an equation and trying to weigh them equally, how, how do you square it?

[00:04:33] Lauren: So that happens all the time. That happens all the time. So that’s one of the reasons why Sea Change exists. When I was starting my consulting firm, I wanted to do good. And everybody that I talked to and I’d had a couple. This was not my first business idea. You know, I’d had other business ideas I’d thrown out there. And everyone I talked to, whenever I talked about doing good, said, oh, well, so you need to get started on profit. And I’m like, I don’t think that’s right.

I don’t think that’s true. So let’s go find out more things. And I had helped to run social enterprise kind of within nonprofits. And I’m like, I think this is a business model. And this was years and years and years and years ago. And so, you know, I, I learned that I was right, that, you know, there is kind of this idea that you can start a company with the good at the core of it, you know, the reason why you’re doing that. And now there are some legal models that allow that to happen. And again, I know you’ll ask a question about that later, so we’ll answer it later. So the question coming back to conflict is that so in the Sea Change curriculum, part of the. The reason we exist is to own that and to acknowledge it and to say, hey, when you’re building a business, profit and purpose impact that there are going to be times when there’s conflict and what do we do about that? And so the answer is, it depends. Which is not. Not an awesome. You know, it’s not easy to say it depends on a lot of stuff. So some examples of times when a social entrepreneur might run into some conflict there. One really good one that’s easy to talk about is marketing.

So when you’re marketing your company, are you putting the mission forward or are you putting your product forward? You know, your good or your service? Because it’s not necessarily going to be easy to do both, you know, depending on your company and what you’re trying to do. Right. Let’s say that one of the reasons you started your business was to hire individuals with barriers to employment. So you’re hiring folks that are, you know, maybe they are returning citizens or maybe they are under or uneducated. Maybe they are on the autism spectrum or survivors of human trafficking. So, you know, folks in those spaces need different HR policies and practices than folks who maybe don’t have those same barriers. Well, okay, cool. Those HR practices are expensive. So when you’re talking about your profit, bottom line, it’s not going to be where it could be if that wasn’t your mission.

And so understanding that and recognizing that, literally kind of day to day or month to month, especially when you’re first getting started, you may have to prioritize one or the other and flip flop back and forth given the decision and the situation and what your bank account looks like versus what you’re, you know, like. And so, you know, without the profit, your company can’t exist. Without the mission, you have no passion and no reason to do this. So, you know, they’re both equally important. And so that’s a big part of what that curriculum does. And what I do as a consultant is help people kind of navigate those. Those questions.

[00:07:34] Anna: For folks who are not watching the video, Janel and I are like bobbleheads right now, just like, nodding yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, it makes me think about how we run Strange Birds, right? There’s. There were multiple times this year in our personal lives that things were really hard.

And we made the decision that at that moment that people were more important than profit because profit would suffer anyway if we didn’t take care of people, because it’s us two.

And that is not a common decision, unfortunately, in the world that we work in. So it felt hard to do. It felt a little against the grain. So I think this comes naturally into our next question of this model of social enterprise.

I mean, you obviously think it’s important, but if you want to soapbox for a moment on why you think other.

[00:08:27] Lauren: People should think it’s important, you know, I said that when people say they’re doing good, they’re told to start a nonprofit. And that’s true. But there are two stories they’re told. They’re either told by kind of all the. All the advisors out there to go start a nonprofit or to go, like, make money first, and then you can add your impact in. And that’s cool, but. But, like, if we look at the data, it shows that most startups don’t break even until year three. So, okay, great. Like, you’re gonna go out there and hustle and bust your ass. Can I say ass?

[00:08:58] Anna: Oh, yeah. You can curse as much as you damn want, but you’re gonna bust your.

[00:09:03] Lauren: Ass for three years maybe. And like, and not be doing the thing you want to do, which is to help people. Like, you’re not gonna do that. And, like, not okay. That’s not okay. And you’re gonna burn out and you’re gonna quit, and it’s not gonna happen. And so I was convinced. And so this Kind of leads me to my soapbox. I was convinced that that didn’t have to be the case. That doesn’t have to be the way it is. You can do good. From day one, which is now the tagline for sea Change, I start a lot of conversations about what is social enterprise? By asking, why might someone do good while doing business? And Ana, you were in a session that we had this conversation, and the audience, you know, a lot of times comes at it from like a kind of a personal or like moral obligation. Like, I, as an entrepreneur, want to do good because I. I think I can and I should. And you know, like, we all should do what we can to help people, which is true. Like, I 100 personally agree with that. The other piece of it, though, is that we have a history in, in the US with, with capitalism, kind of with the, with the economic system that we have set up, of relying on nonprofits to fix the problem. And we, in 2024, which I think is the most recent data, I have gave over $500 billion to charity. And, you know, we have this kind of, this trickle down theory of economics that if, if people at the top make more money, they’ll trickle that down. And I think people are trickling it down, just not at the pace and the rate that we need in order to help the people who are most vulnerable. And so ultimately, we need to look to a different model to fix it. And that really, a lot of the kind of mindset behind social enterprises is that nonprofits don’t have to only rely on philanthropy to do good, and for profits can exist in order to do good. And that’s okay. And I really do believe, and people hear me say this all the time, that every business could be a social enterprise if they wanted it badly enough. Like, that’s it. All they have to do is know about it and want it, and then they can do it. And it would not be hard, you know, to, to make that happen, because most people, and there’s data all over the place that shows that the vast majority, you know, any, any of these questions about, do you want businesses to do good? Do you support businesses that do good? Would you change brands if they’re doing good? If they align with your values, would you leave a brand that doesn’t align with your values? You. Yes, we’re seeing like 80, 90% of people, so many people saying, like, yeah, I believe that businesses have the responsibility to do good. So, yeah, it’s a culture shift, but not for the majority. The majority agree with the fact that this should happen.

[00:11:47] Janel: Okay, so, like, I, I’m. I’m with you. We’re seeing this in a lot of different. It’s heavy on our minds.

[00:11:52] Lauren: Right?

[00:11:52] Janel: Because the reason why we’re shifting away from this recording platform is because of our ethics as a business. The reason why we’re delisting from Spotify is because of our ethics as a business.

[00:12:02] Lauren: We’re.

[00:12:02] Janel: We’re part of, like, this cultural wave that is holding corporations responsible for the actions that they take. Right. So I’m totally with you that this is part of the zeitgeist. What I see as tougher isn’t so much convincing people that this ought to be. But I don’t see as clear the path that businesses can take to get from point A to point B. I think that part is trickier because taking a single action that values your ethics over your profit is hard in and of itself. Constructing the entire structure of how you exist in the world is almost unthinkably tough. Is that something that you work on in your accelerator? How do you think about that?

[00:12:47] Lauren: Yeah, I think that’s a great question and a really good point. You know, I said it doesn’t have to be hard. The naive, happy part of me says that that’s true. Like, it doesn’t have to be hard, but when I get into, you know, corporate clients. So more from the consulting side, where I work with a, you know, a corporate client that says we want to do good and we want to do more than just cut a check to charity. Like, we want to do that, which is great, and everyone should do that, like, support your local nonprofits. But, like, what do we do if we want to, like, embed this in now? You know, we’ve been around for 50 years. We’ve been around for 60 years. Like, what do we want to do? And getting folks to recognize that the answer is not to do something that’s more expensive and then raise prices on your, like, good that you’re selling that. That is not the answer. That is much harder. So the, the shift for me is less about, you know, how do the inner workings of the company work or, like, who’s making the decisions or whatnot. It’s saying that we are now committing to lowering the gap between the kind of wealthiest and least wealthy people, even within our own company. And we are going to make that decision on purpose because. And we can see there’s. There’s equity data across the world, globally. And we can see that there are countries like Japan and Sweden, totally different countries.

[00:14:06] Anna: Right.

[00:14:06] Lauren: The way they function, the way their families are designed, like everything. Very many, many, many, many differences. However, whenever you look at any kind of measurement of equity, and that then translates to things like social determinants of health, that things like happiness factors, like things like all of these things, people in prison, like all of this stuff, they, they score better per population than any other countries.

But the way they get there is very, very different. So, and the U.S.

and this is getting me way outside of, like, this is not my total expertise, but I do know a little bit. So the US flip flops between these things, depending on who’s in charge and what’s going on and like the public’s appetite for stuff. But these, these countries have stuck with it. So Japan controls businesses in a lot of ways. And so there’s a smaller gap in wages like to begin with. And they just say, hey, businesses, you can’t do that. You know, you can’t pay somebody a hundred times more than your lowest paid worker. Like that can’t happen. So great. What a radical idea. What?

And so like, cool. And so then Japan does that and then they, they pay very little taxes, you know, like less taxes. And they do, but like, they don’t need to because the wages are closer together. But then Sweden’s the opposite. They’re like, business, you can do whatever you want, kind of, you know, whatever. But we’re going to tax the bejesus out of the rich and help make sure that again, those gaps are smaller. And I’m happy to throw you guys a TED Talk that you can, you can share the link to, to whoever by Richard Wilkinson. He’s an amazing, amazing researcher on all of this stuff and that’s where I’m getting this information from. But so the US flip flops on those things and we, we say that we’re free market capitalism, but we’re not. There are all these rules all over the place. They’re just not controlling the stuff that would fix these problems. And so getting all the way back to your original question, why should, why should anybody care? It’s the bottom line is because what we’ve been doing isn’t working. We’re still seeing inequities everywhere. We’re still seeing people struggling and they don’t have to, I don’t think. You know, I read something recently and it’s one of those like unaccounted for Internet quotes, right? That’s floating around. But it was like, basic premise was we don’t want, like, we want to be wealthy in, in the fact that we can, like, pick up the tab every once in a while, and, like, we can, like, not worry about getting our kids, like, new shoes. Like, that’s what the. The wealth that we want. We. I don’t need a yacht. Like, I. There are people out there that need that. Cool. But, like, the vast majority of people who want to be, like, wealthy, that’s what they need. And so, you know, I. I believe firmly that every. Every business should do anything they can to help. And I was. I was at a Columbus Chamber of Commerce event, so I’m going to give them a little plug because they are running a series of events over the next year called Giving beyond the Check, and it’s meant to help the chamber members learn what to do, you know, outside of just cutting a check to charity, which is great. And so we. I was on a panel, and what I will tell you is that I got, like, snaps and applause from people in. In the audience when at the very end, I held it. Held it until the end. And I was like, you guys. Because they’re like, well, if they’re, you know, the question was like, oh, if there’s, like, one thing you could do or whatever. I was like, you clean house. I’m like, look at your own workers. I was like, do you have employees that are on food stamps? If yes, do something about it and not raise your prices on your goods.

Who cannot get a bonus this year so that 12 workers can make more money. Like, what can you do? And the audience loved it. And I mean, that is like. So those are things that, you know, to your point, Janel, about, like, it being hard. It’s hard, but it’s only for a few people. But those few people make a lot of money and have a lot of power. So it’s like, how do we.

How do we fix that? And so unions, things like. I mean, there are all these things, like, there are all these tools that exist that, you know, businesses can use, but social enterprise is one of them. So he can, you know, integrate a model. You could just start having that conversation, and businesses can choose different vendors. You got. You told me to get on a soapbox. So you get it. You ask for it.

[00:18:06] Anna: Listen, you deserve to be on a soapbox at all times.

This is fire. Do not stop.

[00:18:11] Lauren: So, like, seriously, it can be full shift in my whole, you know, dream world of people doing the thing. But, you know, the easiest thing, and this is something that, you know, I encourage all of the listeners to do all the time, is, you know, we had For a long time, kind of in the 90s, early 2000s, this kind of shop local push, which still exists, so much so that like American Express has a, you know, shop local Saturday or whatever that’s after Black Friday. So like local is there and important and makes a ton of sense. And a lot of social enterprises are local. But think, you know, shop social, use the alliteration and say shop social. So what are those companies that are doing good and how can you support them? So let’s say a listener is, you know, in charge of planning their, their team’s holiday party. Great. Cater it from a social enterprise caterer. Okay, you need to go buy coffee for somebody. Do that. Like buy it from a social enterprise. You are going to do gifts for your team. Buy them from social enterprises that sell candles, drink mixers, hats, like all kinds of amazing things that they’re selling that they’re doing good with the profit that they’re, that they’re making. And if you’re in charge of the people who help, there are landscapers, there are painters, there are cleaning companies, commercial cleaning companies. There are all these companies that are social enterprises that you could choose that are not going to be twice as expensive. It might be slightly more, maybe. But honestly most of the folks that we support at our office every, we get, we get our toilet paper from a social enterprise. We get free administration products for menstruators in our bathrooms from social enterprise. Our art on the walls is from a social enterprise. Cleaning companies, a social enterprise. Like we are hiring everybody and we are not paying any more than we would have if we were hiring non social enterprise companies. I will give you guys a link to a marketplace where people can find some, at least in central Ohio, that. It’s a central Ohio marketplace where we can find some of them. I would say just gut. It’s about 75% of the operating social enterprises in, in central Ohio. But other listeners. Sorry, I might have one other one. I’ll look, I might have another link for you. That’s emotional company.

[00:20:18] Anna: So. Well, first, yeah, like I said before, you should always be in a soapbox for all time. Amen. Second, thank you.

I have so many thoughts from that soapbox and I’m trying to remember which of the 5,000 thoughts I want to bring up forward first. But we’ll start with the last point of. I think that last point of if you’re planning a holiday party, holiday gifts, it’s, it’s those day to day decisions that I mean even in our business, right, we’re looking for like the easiest, cheapest option, which it just takes 12 more seconds to do a little bit more research.

And then usually the product is better and it’s the same cost. And you feel really good handing your money over. You’re like, yeah, take my money.

[00:21:03] Lauren: Please take it.

[00:21:05] Anna: Right. So it’s that pausing and slowing down of is this a decision that I’m making because it’s easy or is this a decision that I’m making because it’s in line with where this company. Companies going? And okay, now I’m remembering the other point. Wow, that was such a good soapbox.

So talking about this idea of looking at your own books and your own employees and looking at the wage gap, I think isn’t the wage gap for CEOs in the US like 279%? It’s like something gross. We’ll fact check that number. But it’s one of the reasons why Janel and I wanted to make Strange Birds a co op. Right. Is it’s not only it’s how we want to work, but it’s so unusual in the industry that we work in to function as a co. Op. The model is agency, and that’s it. And so what if we figured out how to do it and then pass on that knowledge? So it’s, it’s totally doable. We’re doing it. We’re having fun.

Okay.

[00:22:06] Lauren: It’s exactly.

[00:22:08] Anna: Oh, go ahead.

[00:22:08] Janel: It’s exactly that, though, like you’re building on Lauren’s exact point that when you show up as a business doing that, it is influential to your communities in a very different way than if you’re a nonprofit doing that. Again, nonprofits do amazing work. No slagging them, but it’s different. It’s a different kind of convincing maybe that people need within late stage capitalism.

[00:22:31] Lauren: When you show up and you draw.

[00:22:32] Janel: These lines and you say, I’m going to make these choices and I’m going to make them in a way that’s visible. Yeah. It makes your heart feel good, but it also affects those who see you being successful within the system that they’ve. They’ve grown up in. And they start wondering if maybe they should consider their decisions and under a similar lens. You know what I mean? Like, it’s, it, it can feel like a drop in a bucket when you have to make those decisions as an individual.

It’s not, but it can often feel like very isolated. But when you’re, when you’re a business showing up, I think it has a sort of different weight to it. And I really think it matters.

[00:23:08] Lauren: Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, it kind of gets back to part of my soapbox and that just in the work that I’ve done and the time that I’ve been doing this, which is a very long time, I’ve really. There are a few conclusions that I’ve come to. And, you know, a good example that most people understand is kind of this idea of climate change and that, you know, talking about, like, if the three of us were having that conversation instead and we were like, what could we do? Like, as individuals to, like, what do we have power to do? Use reusable bags, Solar on your house, Battery operated car, Electric vehicle, What else? Compost. Right. Like, these are like, recycle. Recycle. We’re supposed to recycle.

[00:23:43] Anna: Right.

[00:23:43] Lauren: We did not cause these problems. And so you’re right. Like, we can. We can do those things and they will make a drop in the bucket, and all the drops make a bucket. Right. And that’s great, but the person who created the bucket needs to, like, do something about it. And so. But we as individuals have to make choices that then tell them that we care. And so, you know, now we see bamboo straws because there was this, like, push against straws. So. Okay, but not everywhere, right? And the people make the plastic straws, are still making plastic straws.

It’s a disproportionate reliance on individuals to try to, like, fix a lot of these problems that were created by policies and procedures and laws and regulations that were created by people. And that’s the part that people often kind of forget is that the system is people. And those people come with biases and isms and, like, baggage and all of the stuff that we show up with. And so how do we all work to understand each other more and do these things? I have a class at Ohio State and I work with, with these students around a socially just city. Like, how do our cities. Why are our cities inequitable? And. And what do those look like? And what can we do about it? And it’s changing. The way that we interact with other humans is a big piece of it, especially humans that we don’t agree with. And, you know, that’s a hard thing now, but yeah, so. And I think the, you know, as companies, the people who run companies, to do something about these things in a different way and asking why. And that is one thing that I’m. I’m seeing a little bit more of with students now, which is great, is asking why is it that way? So I think, you know, you too are an example of that. You know, in your field, this co op idea is not common. You know, when anyone thinks about co ops, it’s food, right? Like grocery stores, a food co op, farm, co op. Like, that’s who you think of when you. I mean, that’s who I think of anyway, but like, okay, why can’t it be an agency like yours? Like, why. Why is this the way it is? And what can we do, you know, to, to change that and, and be brave and, and take a, take a chance and try something different and it may not work. And I think, you know, the, the part of it that I want to make sure that people hear is, you know, like, there are some times when I throw the can in the trash instead of the recycling. Like, we, you know, we’re gonna. Like, you can’t hold yourself. I know this podcast will never see the light of day. I just made. But like, and it’s when I’m like, have I ordered something from Amazon before? Yeah, I have. Like, we have to give ourselves grace, that we’re trying our best. And so, you know, back to just know about the things, support the things, do your best. When you do have a big decision, try to make your big decisions, align with your values and with what you’re trying to do. Try to buy from social enterprises when you can. And the other piece that I wanted to touch on, because I think, Janel, I think it was you that, that kind of brought this up a little bit. Nonprofits can be social enterprises. We need our nonprofits to run more like businesses. The challenge that they have been under that folks don’t understand or don’t think about often is there’s a.

There has been historically this idea that a hundred percent of my donation should go to direct service, like directly to the thing that I’m funding. So if I’m funding, you know, after school backpacks for kids that, you know, after school backpacks full of food for kids that are struggling to make ends meet, their families. I want 100% of my donation to go to the Food for the kids. Right? Like, that’s what we want. Well, great, then the food is still at the store because there was no stuff staff person who could go buy the food and take. Pack the backpack and take the food. So it’s not feasible, like it is not reasonable to expect that. And so what has happened because people expected it is that then foundations and other grant giving organizations expect that. And so for folks you may not know, but the vast majority for many, many years. And this is shifting a little bit. But the vast majority of funders required each grant request to include no more than 10% of. For administrative expenses, meaning staff, rent, vehicles, computers, phones, pencils, paper, like whatever, right? So no more than 10% of the ask. So if you’re asking for $1,000, only $100 of that can go to administrative costs. That is impossible.

You cannot function as a business. And it’s because everyone says, oh well, they’re not a business. Well, what are you? What are what. What are they then? Like a volunteer core, which, you know, many of them have to be because you can’t hire anybody for 10%. No company functions on that. If you look at a bunch of for profits, it’s going to be the opposite, right? They’re going to be spending almost 90% or at least 70% of their money on admin stuff.

You’re building and your people are your most expensive things and then your inventory, if you’re a goods, like if you have goods.

But. So it’s an insane system that’s set up that way. And so being vocal, if you are donating your money, saying that it’s unrestricted, that the nonprofits that you’re giving money to can use it for whatever they need it for, I promise you they are not squandering it. Like that is not what’s happening. So just recognizing that the system has been kind of set up this way, that really that $500 billion is not fixing the problem, then that’s part of.

[00:29:09] Anna: The reason why it reminds me of the book. Have you read Winners Take All?

[00:29:13] Lauren: No.

Okay. Is that the title?

[00:29:17] Anna: Okay, yes. You gotta read it. So it’s about philanthropy and exactly this where when I give money because I’m giving it, I get to control exactly how it’s used because I know what’s best when in reality, if you’re the one giving money, you probably don’t know what’s best for whatever population it’s serving. Right. Unless maybe you’ve you experienced in the past and, and you’re in a different spot now, but like general popul, like it’s. It’s this sense of control and this lack of trust and this. This need that like the person who is the people or the populations that are receiving the money, they must deserve it. And that gets really wrapped up into one. Probably one of the reasons why we have that nonprofit control system now of like 10% admin costs.

[00:30:03] Lauren: Jens.

[00:30:04] Anna: Yeah, it’s complicated. But other. There’s other business models that are designed to do good outside of nonprofits, outside of social enterprises.

I know B Corps is one of them.

So if you could, if you’re willing to give a quick overview of some other models that maybe people can go research on their own on. Okay, I don’t want a typical triangle shaped CEO at the top. That makes 279% more than everyone else. What are other ways that people can approach the model of their business?

[00:30:34] Lauren: So I do, I do a conversation often called how to do good while doing business. And we cover really the five primary ways. And so there are other things like corporate social responsibility, policies that a corporation can put into place, or these things where doing good is really. It’s still happening, you know, but it’s maybe a little bit of an afterthought, like, oh, hey, we want to try to do something because people say there’s good out there. And we are seeing also a little bit of a, A good washing, if you will. We had greenwashing back in the day with environmental stuff, and now we’re seeing a good washing, like a little bit less, given the current environment. But for a while we were seeing, you know, everybody everywhere having commercials about all the good they’re doing in the, out in the community and whether or not they are really, who knows? But so anyway, so the five models, if you start with legal designations, so we’ve got nonprofit, which is, you know, it’s doing good.

They are allowed to earn revenue as long as that revenue is pushing their mission forward. And there are a few other, there are other caveats there, but. And they are allowed to turn revenue there. So you can have a nonprofit.

You can also have a benefit corporation, which is abbreviated to B Corp. So in many states, it’s not all states, but many states have. You are allowed to start a company that’s called a benefit corporation. It is a for profit entity that has a mission that is baked into the founding documents. And so let’s go back to that example of hiring people with barriers to employment. So if that is the company that you are starting and you start it as a benefit corporation and you write that mission into your founding documents.

Let’s say you grow, you know, scale 10x and sell, which is always the language in entrepreneurship. So they’re gonna scale and then we’re gonna sell. The buyers have to keep your mission. They don’t have a choice. Because that is the legal designation of the, of the company. Yes. Can they change it? Can they do things? Maybe, but like, I mean, that’s the, the basic Premise is that you’re, you’re doing your best to kind of make sure that that social mission lasts.

So those are your, your, your legal designations. And then, you know, there are a handful of different kind of business models or certifications that you can follow. And so those are the other three that I talk about. Social enterprise is one of them. So again, those are going to be.

Typically, the ideal scenario is that you set up a social enterprise when you’re founding your company. But it doesn’t have to be that way. You can certainly add it in later. And so there are different models there. The employment one is one. The idea of kind of buy one, give one either for goods or services, right? So you can employ 10 boxes of tampons that we sell. We will give one away through a shelter. We can do that sort of thing. You can also do the free and sliding scale version of that for a program. So let’s say that you run cooking classes. You can, you know, say, okay, you can go as, as, as specific as to say, okay, well, for people who have different income levels, you know, you choose and this is what you pay. What you pay what you pay. Or you can just say a pay what you can model. And there are companies out there that, that do that. And so those are kind of buy one, give one models or fee for service models kind of in there. There is, there is a, what we would call a revenue sharing model where, you know, the reason you’re starting the company is because you want to do good. So we’re still there.

You recognize that you probably don’t have the expertise to do the good yourself. And there are also a lot of amazing nonprofits out there to do the good. Like they’re already doing it.

And so you say, you know what, I do have the expertise in this thing, so I’m going to start this business. But the reason I’m starting it is because I want to give money to these charities.

And so you are committing a large portion of profit that is being committed every quarter, every month, every whatever, to those charities. And you are that, that. Go back to Janel. Your question of the friction and the choices, like that goal is going to be above everything else. Like you are committing that money. You are saying this is happening. There are folks out there that don’t think that really counts, but it is a model within the social enterprise kind of umbrella. Then there’s, so we did social or nonprofit benefit corporation, social enterprise. Then there’s a B Corp certification that companies can get. So B Corp and B Corp. We’ve got two B Corp. So B Corp. Certification is run by a company called B Labs and they have international certification for doing good. And there’s a really lengthy certification process. It’s expensive, but if you have, and you all have seen it, it’s a circle with a capital B in it. It’s just black and white. That badge means that those folks are doing good, like, for sure. So like those people, you can get a B B Corp. Certification. And in order to get that you have to be doing good. And then the last one that I include in my conversation is conscious capitalism. So it’s a, that one is of them all really a top down, like big company kind of model. Folks like Campbell’s and Whole Foods, you know, abide by this. And the, the basic premise there is back to that kind of triple bottom line. But even it goes further. Like every major decision that the company makes has to be good for the employees, for, for the environment and for the vendor, like whoever you’re dealing with. Like, so whether it’s your customer or like someone that you’re hiring or you know, like whatever the deal is, they say that every major decision has to do that. And so it’s, and it’s a very top down, like the leadership has to do it. So those are the five that we talk about as like the primary ways to do.

[00:36:07] Anna: But just a couple. If people want to go look at some examples, the Tampon company on flow, go check them out. I’m just going to do some shout outs now because it’s go buy stuff even comes down to toilet paper decisions. So when during the pandemic when everyone was like, oh my God, toilet paper. In that moment we discovered who gives a crap? Which is a certified B Corp. But they do the profit model where 50% of their profits pay for new toilets elsewhere. And it’s bamboo. It costs the same as buying toilet paper anywhere else.

It’s cool. Who gives a crap? Cotopaxi is a clothing company that is a B Corp. If you like ice cream, go buy Jenny’s. Like those are bigger companies that you can look at. If you look at the Central Ohio link that Lauren will share and you’re like, I don’t live in Central Ohio. You can start with how you wipe your ass.

[00:37:01] Lauren: Yeah, there are a ton of, to your point, like a ton of resources out there. We will also give you guys the link for the SeaChange alumni page so that folks can go on there and see kind of who they might be able to support locally, especially In Colorado and North Carolina, which are two of our other big markets.

[00:37:19] Anna: Nice.

[00:37:20] Lauren: The more, the more I do, the more work I do in these spaces, the more I recognize the role of trust in all of these conversations. And we have all of this data that shows, you know, that, you know, trust in the US like just in other people was, you know, at its highest in like the 70s. And then it has decreased, you know, pretty steadily since then to a point where I think it was 2018 or something, that it was around like 30 to 33%, like kind of in the U.S. like of people. So basic premise is, you know, do people believe that other people are inherently like trustworthy? And so if we take that number and just hold on to 33% for a minute, you know, if it’s a third of people and we extrapolate it back out to decision makers and say, okay, we’ve got a room of 100 people and we need a majority of them to make a decision.

And only a third of them believe that other people inherently trustworthy, they’re going to make a decision like they’re going to be able to do it.

And that decision is going to not trust people. And so when we talk about things like social safety nets or benefits or should people make, you know, what is the minimum wage and should that be a wage that someone could work one job and not be in poverty? Which the answer is there have been like three years in history where a two person family with a kid can work a minute one minimum wage job and not be considered in poverty. Like if we’re making those decisions, people are going to say no, there have to be hoops to trust. They have to jump through hoops. We need them to prove that they need it because we don’t trust them and 2/3 of the people don’t trust. And so we see it on small scale. We see it on communities that are testing universal basic income. We see it on communities that are saying, you know what, in Columbus, again, I like for being a kind of progressive city sometimes they are doing some great work. The Department of Development right now is providing unrestricted dollars to people living in poverty through programs that if they, they’re just like, here, here’s money, now use it. Like, come here and tell us how much you need to get by and we’ll give it to you. And so they’re doing it and they’re saying, okay, I need $500 to get by to pay rent. And they’re giving them 500 bucks and they’re using it to pay rent. Like a, you know, an amazing idea. Right? But so this. But it takes trust. And so, you know, while that is a. A big word, big T, trust and, you know, big, big examples that I’m giving you, like, do you trust people that are different than you? And that’s hard. It’s hard to do.

Do you trust people who disagree with you, or do you just think they’re stupid? Because they’re not. Like, they. Right. The Other side is not dumb. That’s a blog that I love and I use all the time in my class and in other conversations. Is this. This guy wrote about that concept that, like, we want to believe that the Other side. If they only knew, then they would change their minds. And it’s not true. So what can we do about it?

[00:40:23] Janel: I think that’s why it matters so damn much if you own a business. To show up in a way that matters to you, that shows up in a way that helps the world be just a little bit closer to what you want it to be. Because you having the power to be visible and to take up space and to show success within a capitalistic system while still doing the good things helps give gasoline to that movement of trust.

[00:40:49] Lauren: To that.

[00:40:49] Janel: To that shift towards being more connected to the people around us and not just thinking that everyone else is just out for themselves and being part of that really, really matters in a big way. I don’t know.

Whenever I find myself, like, too caught up in reading news and feeds and all that, like, I tend towards feeling a bit nihilistic about, like, any chances that we have as individuals of actually doing anything that matters. But then when I shift my frame of reference to, like, thinking about the communities that I intersect with and how my actions have an impact on those communities, and then it spreads out from there, then the nihilism gets a lot more quieter.

[00:41:27] Lauren: That’s a bit dark, but. But that’s.

[00:41:29] Janel: My mind’s there a lot recently, and I. So I. Yeah, I think it matters. It matters as a business, how we show up.

[00:41:35] Anna: When you’re. When you’re talking about a business doing good, what matters is that you keep doing it when things are hard, when the easy decision would make you money, but the harder one would keep up that trust and instill more longevity. And. And there’s this quote that. That I heard a couple weeks ago that I can’t let go of is, how do you show up when no one’s looking?

Right. And I think that that, to me, is the core of the energy that would drive A social enterprise forward, right? When no one’s looking, how are you still showing up? When no one is looking over your books, when no one is paying attention, how are you showing up?

[00:42:15] Lauren: I brought it up earlier.

You, as an individual are going to make mistakes, and you, as a company are going to make mistakes, and it’s going to happen. And you are going to have to. Not only are you going to make mistakes, but sometimes you are going to have to make that hard decision on a. Like, either on the one end, where we’re going to make less money this quarter, or on the other end and we’re not going to hit our impact numbers that we want, right? And the work that you all do in communicating that, that is the part that builds trust, is communicating with transparency, being honest. We’ve got to get away from this cancel culture crap that’s out there. Like, we have to let people make mistakes loudly. Because if we can’t do that and make mistakes and learn from them, it creates a culture of fear and distrust, which is where we are. And so we have to be able to do that. And so I think, you know, recognizing that, you know, even the experts sitting here today, you know, talking about this stuff, have made mistakes and we’ve messed stuff up, and we have to be able to communicate that and own it. And that sucks, and it hurts, and I hate it, but it’s something that needs to happen. And, you know, the work that you all do to help people communicate, all that stuff is so important. And so just making sure that the, you know, people. The communication plan is almost always secondary. Like, when I’m working with, you know, as a consultant and I’m talking to folks, I’m like, guys, how are we going to communicate this to the staff? How are we going to communicate it to your board? How are we going to communicate all along the way? And, like, how are we going to let them know that they get to have a part in it? Like, and they get to have a say? And, like, what does that map look like? And when are those points of input? And everybody’s like, oh, well, let’s work on the meat and potatoes of it. And I’m like, no, but that’s it. Like, that’s the potatoes of it. And so I think there’s just this big, you know, it’s. It’s just recognizing that everyone around us are people and they’re people, and let’s treat them like people and, you know, make sure that. That we bring them along and tell them why we can’t if we can’t, you know, if you can’t bring them along, then here’s why you know and own that.

I don’t know. I think all of it’s so important. It’s all important. Yeah. This is. Thank you.

[00:44:20] Anna: Well, thank you for just telling everyone how important our work is.

[00:44:24] Lauren: Gosh.

[00:44:26] Anna: But I mean, how I introduced you at the beginning remains true is every time I interact with you, I come away with 1 million and 1 new insights.

Yeah. This has been an absolute pleasure.

[00:44:39] Lauren: I redone.

[00:44:40] Anna: I just, I’m just going to wax poetic forever.

[00:44:43] Lauren: One of the exciting things that I wanted to bring up. So number one, we’ve got a bunch of. If you are from central Ohio, which if you’re not, that’s great. If you are from Central Ohio, we have the festival for Good that comes up every fall. That’s a celebration of social enterprise.

And we’ll again, I’ll get you guys all the, all the links so you can send all the things. But festival for good. SeaChange, you can get involved as an entrepreneur. You can get involved as a mentor or a facilitator. If you are out there and have a subject matter that entrepreneurs care about, we’d love to have you. And that’s not just in central Ohio. That’s everywhere. We’d love to have everybody to help us. We do virtual cohorts, we do and person cohorts and we do showcase events for our entrepreneurs to kind of introduce them into the, into the community. And so supporting those showcase events, either by showing up by live streaming them by donating to the crowd favorite, all of those things can help again, social entrepreneurs move forward. SeaChange is also celebrating its 10th birthday on February 1st of 2026. We are dropping a 10 years of impact impact reports. We want to focus on the entrepreneurs and the work that they’re doing. So you could read that, learn some more about different entrepreneurs that are doing amazing work right in your own backyard. And if you are out there and you run a nonprofit and want to earn revenue, or you are a for profit that want to learn how to do good, I’m, I’d be happy to have a chat, totally pro bono chat about that as a consultant. So there are all kinds of different ways you can get involved. We can make it happen. Like let’s do good together.

[00:46:06] Anna: We’ll drop all of that stuff in the show notes. There’s going to be 1 million links and they’re all worth looking at. No, it’s good, it’s good. I think that Every time I have a conversation about social enterprise or doing good as a business, everyone always wants to learn more.

So there will be plenty for you to learn more about in the show. Links this is great.

[00:46:29] Janel: Flying the Coop is brought to you by Strange Birds, a strategic messaging co op for businesses who care loudly.

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